In a recent thread people were mentioning the Tueller Drill, which some claimed 'proved' that knife always beats gun within 21 feet. That's bullshit.TL;DR: The distance at which a knife beats a gun depends on shooter draw speed, carry configuration, movement, terrain, and so on. 21 feet is effectively an upper limit for the worst case, where the shooter is reacting to the charge, doesn't move, hasn't trained with the weapon, shoots from full extension, and starts with the safety on. In my own training I've found that the shooter can win regularly from 6 feet when reacting to the charge by using lateral movement, a proficiently drilled weapon, a close combat shooting stance, and a firearm carried ready to fire (even when drawn from concealment). The bottom line is, as always, train and test yourself and figure out what your effective range is for your carry configuration.- Tueller Drill descriptionsFrom the wikipedia page:"[Tueller] wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife, or other melee weapon, could cover 21 feet (6.4 m), so he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds."My analysis: The speed at which someone can charge when the target is stationary is way higher than the rate they can close distance against a moving target. Think of all the missed tackles in the NFL when the (highly trained, highly athletic) defender is running full out at the offensive player. Effective stabbing, much like effective tackling, requires that the attacker close the distance as quickly as possible, which, for a moving target, is NOT going to be at a full sprint.The Wikipedia page also mentions that MythBusters did an episode showing that at 20 feet the gun wins, and inside that the knife wins. Here's the video.Mythbusters S10E11MythBusters Drill 1: Adam's description: "Jamie and I will stand back to back...Jamie will start to run [away]. The moment I feel him move I pull out my gun, cock it, pull the safety off, and fire a round. The moment Jamie hears me fire a round, he stops running. The distance at which he's standing when he stops running should be the distance at which a knife is dangerous..."My analysis: This should be result in an absolute outer limit for the situation. Drawing a safed, un-cocked pistol and firing it at a target approximately 21 feet away (see video) with no movement is the worse-case scenario. Any of the simple things Adam could do to complicate the attacker's situation will bring the safe distance in.MythBusters Drill 2: The guys set up a conductive poncho that lit up when Adam got stabbed by a soft knife. Jamie initiated by charging, from varying distances. Adam remained stationary, the safety was on. Results showed that Adam got the shot first at 20 feet, and Jamie won from inside that. However, all the ones Adam "won" were pretty much an effective tie to my eye; getting a round into a guy is no guarantee that he won't be able to carry forward a few feet and stab you, and that's not an outcome to count as a 'win'.- How effectively can we train this?Very! I've trained this with classmates in my martial arts class. The attacker had a rubber knife, the defender had a rubber pistol drawn from concealment (appendix carry). The pistol was 'carried' with a round in the chamber and the safety off. The attacker would start some distance away with the knife already out; the defender would start in the "I don't want any trouble" position, hands near chest, feet in a standard fighting spread.The attacker would initiate at will by charging the defender. The defender would quickly back away from the attacker at about a 45 degree angle in either direction. This maintains distance as much as possible while forcing the attacker to slow down in order to stay aimed at the defender. It is the standard military technique for avoiding being hit with a direct fire weapon. The defender would draw from concealment, put the pistol in the close quarters shooting position where you can aim with the torso (pic, not mine), and try to maintain distance while simulating putting 2 or 3 rounds into the attacker's center of mass. The added bonus of the shooting position shown is that the free hand can be used to further complicate the attacker's plans. Yes, you might get cut on the forearm. It's a fight.I'm planning on re-running the drill with a few upgrades in the near future. I've got an airsoft 1911, so with some all-face protection we're going to actually get to shoot each other and make sure we can get hits on target in this situation.Another variation, if the defender doesn't have room to slide laterally, is that the defender falls to the ground on their back while drawing, and fires from that position while using their legs to keep the attacker at bay. The defender may catch a few glancing blows to the legs, but it would definitely be preferable to just standing there and taking it because "muh 21 feet!".Results of my testingSo far, my group has pretty well established that with only a few minutes of training the gun wins in the carry configuration described from 6 feet or further. Once we'd trained it a few times the attacker was failing every time.RecommendationsBased on this and other testing we've done, I highly recommend (as others have on this thread) learning to carry safely and comfortably in the appendix carry position, off safe, round in the chamber. I was a little nervous with that configuration at first, but with a decent holster with a good trigger guard it can absolutely be done safely. I carried without any ammunition loaded for my first month, with the firearm cocked, and never got close to having a dry fire so it gave me more confidence. I've been carrying that way for a few years now with nothing remotely resembling a close call. Follow basic safety precautions.The reason why appendix carry is superior is twofold. First, draw times are lower than any alternative concealment position, and second, it's the only part of your body that you can pretty much guarantee positive control over in a grappling match. If the fight starts out with pushing and shoving, the appendix is the only place where I'm sure that I can get to my pistol pretty much every time.If you're not comfortable carrying like that, then don't! However, don't assume that you can't use your gun within 21 feet against a knife. Find a friend who's also curious, set up training as realistically as you can, and figure out what your own personal distances are for your draw decision.If anyone's curious about the training with the airsoft 1911, let me know in the comments and I'll see if we can make a video of our training.Be safe. via /r/CCW https://ift.tt/3evFXom
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